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Board » Sailonline Race Committee » Race proposals » Match Racing

Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-20 10:01:18 - Re: Match Racing
	An interesting idea Rod. One consideration would be a "local noon" start for boats all flying the same flag, therefore that "Nation based" division would have the same start time. Then again a local "noon" or 1200hrs may not suit people who may prefer an evening after work time e.g. 1800 or 2000. Problem comes when people are racing under their national flag, but IRL are working, visiting, living etc in some oher country. This would then suggest divisions based upon what time Zone one is or wishes to be in. This would create say 27 divisions as we in NZ are currently GMT/UTC+13 so some where there may be some in Alaska who may be in GMT/UTC-13 and with GMT/UTC of "Zero" could create my 27 divisions. IRL most yacht races are utterly chaotic prior to the start gun and magically they all line up nicely. It is about the only sport I know that does not get all the starters in a neat straight line to start. Most races over my many years would have all starters away within a few minutes, with a common maximum of say 5 minutes. Further most start lines are relatively short, under 1nm in length and so SoL's start "circle" works, given that most races are over 100nm. If there was to be development time on prestart tactics and monoeverings, then perhaps introducing a 3 boat length "ZONE" around each boat to follow the IRL RRS giveway rules could be more useful of those resources. If you go into that "zone" the boat in error has NOT given way and some penalty (TWA=0 for x minutes) could be imposed. Of course a NO PROTEST clause may be needed. Perhaps then having divisions based on say groups of 10 boats in each start could provide some "match" racing scenarios. Each division could be at 5 minute starts, as IRL, and with normal late and non starters, many divisions might shrink to say 7 boats, giving closer match racing tactics an opportunity to shine. Having only 2 boats in a match race will be disappointing when your oponent does NOT START. Hence my suggesting 10 entries per division. Some thoughts to ponder and considering all new ideas "IS" worth while. If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by Rod Posts 350 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2012-01-20 18:23:22 - Re: Start line
	I see no specific need for divisions here. All boats could still start at once--DCs can be calculated and set to insure a boat is not over early--the line could be extended to several miles in length to spread out the fleet--choice of starting point on the line would overcome some of the objections relating to 'following' a 'star' sailor ( not naming anyone called 76.....). Provided the programming could be done without great expense, the idea seems to me to be only favourable to the 'realism' of the racing game. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by NZL_Scotsman Posts 249 Registered at 2008-10-04 07:59:40	2012-01-20 20:14:28 - Re: Match Racing
	An alternative to varying the start time (which sounds like a Mark Foy race to me, fastest boat starts last and has to catch everyone) would be simply to handicap the race. This could be done with the results so no extra server requirement. It could either be done per boat per race or via divisions (1-10 ranking handicap 1, 11-20 0.99 etc). This would allow low ranked boats a chance of "winning". This is all pretty similar to IRL so we should be familiar with it. Kevin
Posted by Rod Posts 350 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2012-01-20 21:02:01 - Re: Starting
	I am watching the TV replay of the start of this leg from Abu Dhabi....and note the use of a short in-port style of 'around the buoys' racing to begin the leg. Could this be incorporated into SOL? It would also have the feature of spreading the fleet, inhibiting the "following" problem, and put a greater premium on boat-handling---all of which would increase both the interest and the realism of the SOL racing model. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-21 09:43:42 - Re: Match Racing
	Rod: On your first post in this thread you stated: "I've an idea for how to run a match racing series that hopefully would not add much to admin or server requirements." Match racing is boat against boat, just as in AC finals etc. So 2 boats racing in SoL would be boring and so I wondered what would happen if your opposition failed to start. All over rover, nothing achieved, no result. I do accept your wishes to have a chance of winning, with tactics between boats being a more major factor than simple boat speed. Unfortunately SoL does not do this currently. Therefore if there were only a few boats racing then if one could cover, tack to force them further away from marks etc as IRL, then that would certainly be interesting to try. As a compromise, a small fleet of say 10 boats, would make a very competitive scenario. It could even become a ladder type event where the first, second and third boats move up into the next round until a final race of less than 10 starters; others being eliminated. In simple terms it could be as close to match racing as SoL can get to practically and without major programming development. Each division would be like a different class of boats, just like the Tall Ships recent races where one could choose a type of boat to race. The only alternative is to follow what we Kiwis (NZL_boats) have already been doing in the past years and have a national prize of a bottle of rum for first in the major races. Then one forgets about the rest of the world, and concentrates solely on beating the kiwi nearest to you. It becomes close match racing for real except the getting cold and wet stuff!!! If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by Rod Posts 350 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2012-01-21 15:21:04 - Re: Match Racing
	My 'shtick' isn't the match racing idea, but the 'start line' concept. I think that adding to the realism of SOL would add greatly to the interest for 'Off-season' racers (such as myself, in the Northern Hemisphere, where the water has become frozen). Starting is a large part of sail racing, and I don't think it would add greatly to the programming complexity, as the 'finishing and mark rounding' programming already includes most of the details. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-21 23:23:40 - Re: Match Racing
	My apologies Rod. Yes I can understand the pre-start tactical positioning could be interesting, if an advantage could be gained for the race. Certainly the keenest awake at starting time will enjoy but many others asleep or working will have set DCs. I also agree with you, that any inport around the buoys should be included in the SoL course, to achieve SoL's stated realism aim. --- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2012-01-21 23:25:54 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by AGage Posts 411 Registered at 2008-12-27 10:31:57	2012-01-23 08:34:45 - Re: Match Racing
	Rod said @ 2012-01-21 15:21:04: Starting is a large part of sail racing, and I don't think it would add greatly to the programming complexity, as the 'finishing and mark rounding' programming already includes most of the details. ====================== Indeed it is in a 'Round the Buoys' race lasting 1.5 - 2.5 hrs, in a 5000nm race it would be insignificant. You mention spreading the fleet - just look at the 'fan' resulting from ALL race starts on SOL - it is quite spread already ?? I think it is important to keep in mind what Sailonline's main line is - Simulating Ocean races... These shorter ones have been added in later, and are great to race - indeed also add a certain element of boat handling on occasion (the right polar in the right conditions) and offer an experience requiring quite different skill-set to these long VOR legs. But there is already enough to contend with for non-sailors, and sailors alike, without adding ROW rules etc... SOL just inst intended to cater for 'Pre-start manoeuvring' etc - Download and/or purchase VSK if you want that sort of racing It also helps to keep threads on topic - you will get more repsonses, which may just result in some idea or the other making its way into SOL I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by 76Trombones Posts 362 Registered at 2009-08-03 18:04:56	2012-01-24 12:44:46 - Re: Match Racing
	Quick reminder that daily "practice racing" uses a start line. The marks are left in place and can be used by any groups wanting to match race at times other than those run by RC. For SOL, the favoured end is almost always obvious - more so if we can't adjust marks within an update of the start. Luff at the starting end and it's just like now. Without full RRS and boat vs boat influence/dimensions it doesn't work, and the timescales don't make sense. Our boats move a hundred metres at a time. SOL is an ocean racing simulator. At practice race scale (two hours max) the line sometimes matters. Winning margins in SOL races can be hours.

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